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She studies the relationship between health and the living environment, while his work focuses on the ethical issues surrounding the relationships between people and animals. Scientists Lidwien Smit (45) and Franck Meijboom (46) spoke to one another about the large-scale culling of mink, battery cages and a mandatory course when purchasing a pet.

Meijboom: So the idea is that we interview one another, right? 
Smit: Right; I’ve never done this before but I’m sure it’ll be fine.
M: Lidwien, your research deals with One Health. What exactly does that entail?
S: One Health is a way of looking at health in which humans, animals and the living environment are inextricably connected with one another. In recent years, for instance, I’ve studied the health of people who live near livestock farms.
M: That’s a fascinating topic.

Humans, animals and the living environment are inextricably connected with one another

S: The interests of people, animals and the environment are sometimes in conflict with one another. While the ban on battery cages [in 2012, ed.] gave chickens more room to move and engage in their natural behaviours, it also led to a tremendous increase in particulate matter. Which is not good for the environment or public health. 
M: There are plenty of examples like that. Pig farmers hung air scrubbers in their barns to purify the air and reduce ammonia emissions. Then we learned that if there’s a fire, air scrubbers cause the flames to blaze out of control. The consequences were horrendous. This makes the need to integrate the health of humans, animals and the environment painfully clear. What do you think it will take to achieve sustainable livestock farming? 
S: Most people agree that it is not possible to solve the problem of sustainability while maintaining the current livestock populations and conditions. But I want to avoid blunt pronouncements about reducing the number of animals, because that would lack any nuance. Whether we have one million or 15 million pigs in the Netherlands, it’s my job to explore how that impacts public health. More than that, reducing the livestock population isn’t a simple solution to the problem. What matters is how we organise the remaining livestock farms. Do we want organic farming with lots of room for the animals, or do we want mega-farms that concentrate all agricultural activity into a single area? How can we safeguard both the environment and public health? 
M: If we decide to raise fewer animals, there is also the question of what to do with all of the pastures, farms and barns. Do we turn them into nature preserves? Fill up the space with new residential construction? You then have the issue of spatial planning in rural areas.

We tend to think of animals as four-legged health hazards

S: Franck, your research focuses on ethical questions about the relationships between people and animals. The coalition agreement of the new Dutch government says we strive for animal-friendly livestock farming that is in balance with public health. While there is growing attention for animal welfare, public health is often seen as the main goal. What do you think about this?
M: With a grin: We still tend to think of animals as four-legged health hazards. Or two-legged, if we’re talking about chickens and poultry. Then, in a more serious tone: I’m happy to see animal-friendly livestock farming in the coalition agreement at all; it was a blind spot for a long time. But if things get really tricky, we have good arguments for attaching greater importance to public health. 
S: One such situation was deciding whether or not to cull mink due to COVID-19, a drastic choice for both the animals and the mink farmers. I was involved in the decision thanks to my expertise on infectious diseases in livestock farming. The risks to public health weighed heavily, and animal welfare was a subordinate concern. 
M: A contributing factor, of course, was the Dutch House of Representatives’ previous decision to shut down Dutch mink farms in 2024. 
S: Ultimately, the risk of new mutations tipped the scales in favour of the cull. We didn’t take the chance, but it’s quite possible that a delta or omicron variant could have emerged here in the Netherlands. Especially because people, mink, dogs and cats all live in close proximity to one another on mink farms.
M: In the Netherlands, we have the luxury of addressing and monitoring this. 
S: Yes, that is a benefit of the One Health approach. What do you think it will take to achieve sustainable and animal-friendly livestock farming? 

Do we feel that meat, dairy and eggs are important enough to justify raising and slaughtering animals?

M: We must ask ourselves whether we feel that meat, dairy and eggs are important enough to justify raising and slaughtering animals. That’s something we should be clear on. The discussion regarding ideal livestock farming practices is important as well. We need a dot on the horizon. Once we have that, we can realistically consider the incremental steps we need to take in order to reach that ultimate goal.
S: Do you think that, at a certain point, consensus will emerge regarding that ideal? 
M: It is quiet for a moment as Meijboom considers his answer. Then, slightly hesitantly: Yes, the overall inclination is shifting. This is evident in the “End the Cage Age” project, an initiative from citizens and NGOs to ban the use of cages in livestock farming. The European Parliament has adopted the ambition and new animal welfare legislation is being introduced in Europe. That would have been unthinkable twenty years ago. Back then, only a handful of animal welfare organisations were concerned with this topic.
S: We can see that same shift in the ban on battery cages and the push to decrease the use of antibiotics. No one – including farmers – wants to return to the old days. A huge amount has been gained. Yet we are encountering ethical dilemmas as well. Because of public health concerns, we now use a minimum of antibiotics in livestock farming – which means that some sick animals no longer receive optimum treatment. What’s your take on that?
M: Those are complex considerations. Animals have intrinsic value, but we also still consider them things. A Labrador is property that can be owned and then sold to someone else when you don’t want it anymore. The law is very different for people: you can’t sell your child on eBay; that would be illegal. More and more, we are asking ourselves if animals should be given a stronger legal position. People see an animal as more of a partner.

No one – including farmers – wants to return to the days of battery cages and widespread use of antibiotics

S: I’m curious to know what you consider to be ideal in terms of the treatment of animals. In a perfect world, would we have animals in captivity at all? 
M: That’s a tough question. It can be acceptable to keep a pet, ride a horse or slaughter an animal. But we’re often wrong in our assessments of what is good for animals. We have trouble looking beyond our own, human interests. In the world of purebred dogs – despite over 30 years of debate – there are still breeding lines that include unhealthy animals. Livestock farmers dock pigs’ tails to keep them from biting each other’s tails due to boredom, insufficient stimulation and frustration. If you ask me, that is what needs to change: we need to consider the animals’ interests and prevent problems such as boredom and frustration. That would be an ideal situation, in my opinion.
S: So it’s OK to keep animals, as long as we put their interests before our own convenience or desires? 
M: Exactly. In the Netherlands, you often have to demonstrate ability or understanding before being allowed to do something. Like taking driving lessons and passing your driving test before you can drive a car. But if you want a pet, you can just go out and get one. There are around 30 million pets in the Netherlands, but nowhere near every owner knows how to take care of their pet. Rabbits, for instance, aren’t happy living alone. Many people don’t know this and they buy one rabbit. Maybe there should be a mandatory course for people who want to get a pet. 

There are 30 million pets in the Netherlands, but nowhere near every owner knows how to take care of their pet

Although the interview was scheduled to take an hour, Smit and Meijboom have been talking for over 90 minutes and are now in their lunch break. Meijboom concludes by noting how much their fields of study overlap. ‘While we don’t work together on a daily basis, we each have our own office and our own group, it wouldn’t be such a crazy idea for us to write a research proposal together.’ Smit nods in agreement. ‘Maybe that’s something we should pursue, yes.’

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